Starting with "respect". Too often in working with horses, it's a euphemism for dominance, or control, or having a horse that is afraid of what will happen if it doesn't comply, or has been run in a round pen until it will seek relief from the pressure in any way it can. But the word respect can have a positive meaning - when I use the term I use it in the sense that the horse should look to me as a calm, attentive leader that the horse can trust - I think what I'm really saying is that true respect (as opposed to compliance) is a relationship where the horse can give its trust to a human leader, and respect that leader to the degree that the leader respects the horse and its feelings. This in my mind has almost nothing to do with being a horse's "alpha" or dominating the horse.
I think what a lot of people mean when they say "my horse doesn't respect me" is that their horse has terrible ground manners and walks all over them (almost always as a result of what the human has, usually inadvertently, taught or failed to teach the horse to do) - why should your horse respect you if you don't pay attention to the horse's asks or provide clear leadership and direction? They may also mean that my horse doesn't do the action or movement I want the horse to do - which again is often (almost always) due to human failure to be clear, consistent or focussed, or may come from pain, fear or lack of understanding on the part of the horse. There's nothing sadder than seeing a rider "get after" a horse - read use bit/crop/whip/spurs to punish, or that wonderful euphemism "motivate" - when the horse is confused, worried or in pain. They may get compliance and think they have their horse's "respect" when what they have is a mechanical horse that complies only due to coercion and fear of pain. That's not a relationship because the horse's feelings about what is happening are ignored or dismissed. That's the route people go who don't know or don't care, and who are happy with a horse that's a piece of sports equipment rather than a partner.
A quote from Mark Rashid's Whole Heart, Whole Horse: Building Trust Between Horse and Rider (reviewed in this post):
The same applies to "obedience" and "submission". To me these terms also have strong negative connotations of control, dominance and a horse that's not allowed to be the other side of a conversation or have an opinion. A lot of people talk about "submission to the aids", but that can encompass methods like rollkur in dressage (or its euphemism "low, deep and round"). I don't like that the word can include things like this and I think (and hope) that many of those who use the word really mean something else like "willing compliance", although it isn't necessarily the case that submission to the aids is a good thing - sometimes the horse is just putting up with an aid because it has to even if much less would do. There's a big difference between compliance and willing compliance - compliance is something you get from the outside of the horse (sports equipment) and willing compliance is something that comes from the relationship between human and horse and which comes from the inside of the horse. I don't just make these distinctions because I want to be "nice" to my horses - in fact just being "nice" gets a lot of people in trouble since they fail to provide their horse with leadership and direction that lead to a horse that's a pleasure to be around and work with. I believe that, although it may feel good to have a horse that is compliant, I can go much farther with my horses and our work together by aiming for willing compliance - there's great power in a relationship with a willing horse that allows some pretty wonderful things to be accomplished by the horse and human together. Here are two quotes from Ross Jacobs's book Old Men and Horses: a Gift of Horsemanship (reviewed in this post) that pretty much sum up what I mean:. . . it is not uncommon at clinics to see horse owners being pushed, pulled, knocked into, dragged around, gnawed on, run past or through, and sometimes even knocked over. Many folks refer to this type of behavior as the horse being disrespectful or having a total lack of regard for the person handling them. But before labeling a horse as disrespectful, I believe it is important to understand that the vast majority of behavior domestic horses offer - whether good, bad or indifferent - in relation to humans has been taught to them in some way, shape or form by a human. For many folks, that idea can be a hard pill to swallow. (p. 33)
I think a large part of [the old men's] secret with horses was that they never saw any horse as other than an equal. Today trainers talk about dominance and submission, alpha horses and herd behaviour. But for the old men, there was never any talk about who was boss and who was in control. To them, working with a horse was a co-operative venture. (p. 63)
The difference between horsemanship and good horsemanship is the difference between having a horse work for you and having a horse work with you. (p. 66)I recently did this post on the equine virtues, and you'll notice that the words "respect", "obedience" and "submission" nowhere appear. I've got some terms I use which I prefer, as I think using (and thinking) them puts me into a different frame of mind. The words I use include attention, forward/impulsion/responsiveness and willingness/softness, but I think those traits have to be developed in the horse by my providing leadership and direction and modeling those virtues, as well as the other virtues, to the horse - it's all one thing together.
Now I do use some pressure/release techniques in working with my horses, and those are to a degree negative stimuli, but I try to end up with cues, and a communication with the horse, that is a soft as possible and I don't punish the horse for trying things and giving me the "wrong" answer. I almost never carry a crop or whip and never wear spurs (I used to routinely do this in the old days) and don't believe these are needed to communicate with the horse. I will use a secondary aid if needed - but all this consists of is making a noise with a crop on my own boot or chap to reinforce "now" and this isn't needed once the horse understands what I want. I will also do anything I have to do, and get as big as I need to, to keep a horse out of my personal space, and I will give an immediate correction (a correction that isn't done almost instantaneously is worthless) to a horse that has attempted to kick or bite me, even if the horse has cause - these are safety issues and the horse has to clearly understand my boundaries. There's a big spectrum of negative stimuli ranging all the way from very soft cues to outright coercion where the horse is forced into a position or action by pain and/or fear and has no choice at all but to comply. I think the language of "asking" the horse rather than thinking of cues (I use this term instead of aids) as "tells" or "makes" makes a difference too. Most horses that are physically able to do so are happy to comply with the requests of a leader who is calm, consistent, clear and fair.
In closing, another quote from Ross Jacobs:
If a person strives to gain the most out of a relationship with a horse, they need to have a fair degree of humility. One needs to accept that the horse has a great deal to teach us and that nobody knows more about the needs of the horse than the horse. From experience, I can tell you that this is incredibly difficult to achieve. Most people have a very strong sense of superiority when it comes to animals. We believe that we are smarter and we know what's best. It's almost impossible to discard this smugness because it is so vigorously fueled by the notion of owning the animal. If I own an animal, I must be the superior. This is how most of us think whether we admit it or not. I believe when we have this attitude toward our horses we inevitably make it the horses' responsibility to obey our wishes. . . .[T]he most important job [people who have horses] have is to make the horse feel good inside himself. [H]aving horses in your life is about accepting a responsibility for their well-being on the inside and on the outside - it isn't about ownership and it isn't about what a horse owes us. (p. 49-51)
Kate, this is a post I have been wanting to create for a while now. Its been brewing in my head and finally, got released to my coworker yesterday in about a half an hour discussion.
ReplyDeleteI must just say, I agree with everything you said here. I think I need to get my own post out now from my personal experiences in "training" and how my views have drastically changed.
Another perceptive post. My horses have taught me that "asking" is usually far better than "telling," unless, as you say, the situation is dangerous.
ReplyDeleteAs for respect? Actually, I feel is is a mutual regard for each other's feelings, and I always think that if I give my Boys respect, I get it back from them. It's just another conception of the word's meaning.
In a nutshell - relationships with horses are, (should always be), a two-way street. Respect should be mutual, meaning we must strive to be worthy of it. And I like the word "cooperation" in the sense of partnership, even better than compliance.
ReplyDeleteAnother great post Kate. I so respect the fact that you spend your time away from the horses and barn, thinking about horse(wo)manship, how to improve it, and then are generous enough to share.
Thank you :)
You're right, language can be misleading. I use a lot of terms people could take the wrong way. I use the word "respect" regularly. I take it to mean that a horse feels safe with you--wants to be a partner--doesn't want to get rid of you (threaten)--and, in this relationship, can relax. You see it in their eyes and their bodies. They're usually "locked on" to their person--wanting to follow them--be near them, but not running over them. When I see all that, I think, that's mutual "respect." Oh, there's one more thing I like to see--the horse who has this relationship with the owner usually comes to them in the pasture as well--rather than running away as fast as they can the other direction. I think the words you've come up with describe it pretty well-- "attention, forward/impulsion/responsiveness and willingness/softness".
ReplyDeleteGood post. Mark Rashid is my favorite trainer. I have been through a lot of the others, Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, etc., but I always come back to Mark. I also have learned a lot from Cesar Milan, the "Dog Whisperer." His primary principle is that we need to be the pack leader through "calm, assertive leadership." He also stressed the difference between discipline and punishment. Betty and I try to be the herd leaders through calm, assertive leadership so that our horses willingly want to follow us. Are we perfect? Far from it, but that's the attitude and goal we have.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the thought-provoking post.
Dan
I agree with you completely. I think the terms are misunderstood, particularly as it relates to dressage. I often scribe at shows and I can't tell you how often I hear judges make comments about unhappy horses. They want happy, relaxed horses doing their job in partnership with the rider. If the horse looks unhappy or uncomfortable, the rider is really slammed by the judge. Appropriately so.
ReplyDeleteAs a person who really loves languages, I am amazed that with all the ingeniousness of english speakers how sometimes the words are not enough! When someone says My horse is disrespectful, it could mean any number of things, and many of them might really have their focus on the owner rather than the horse. I do believe that horsemanship is a partnership, and when my mare starts to take charge on the trail, one of the first things I say to her is: Hey, you've got a rider up here!
ReplyDeleteKate, I was very touched by this post. Well said. I feel priviledged to be able to read it. I understand it so well. Anyone who does, will have the kind of relationship with their horses that will make their hearts soar.
ReplyDeleteI feel so sorry for those who have the master/slave, even God-given dominion/superiority attitude towards these awesome friends and partners. They will never get the same performance from their horse or the wonderful feelings of satisfaction and fulfilment till they understand what you have so eloquently explained.
Oh amen. Love it. So many well meaning people that just have it very backwards. If you look at the relationships that we have amongst humans, it's clear that the best leaders are those who care for and try to understand their co-workers. Why then, would the same not hold true for a working relationship between horse and human or dog and human or...?
ReplyDeleteGreat post Kate! You are so right about the use of these words. I often feel a pang of worry when I hear people use them when describing their relationship with a horse.
ReplyDeleteMy natural tendency is to trust the horse's opinion, sometimes even before my own. Initially this can look like the horse doesn't "respect" me to an outsider. To me it is just the beginning of a long and thoughtful exchange of ideas. Most of the people who use those three terms aren't around me and my horses long enough to see how it turns out.
Thanks for the great ideas!
Excellent post, and I agree,leadership,not dominance, gets far more effective results
ReplyDeleteGood post. Mark Rashid is my favorite horseman after I attended his clinic last year. I can't get enough reading of his words and advice.
ReplyDeleteI've also gotten a lot of helpful information reading Rick Gore's website, too.
I've learned a lot about my own relationship with my mare and how it suffered after she was injured last summer.
It all happened so gradually over several months that I didn't realize I was failing to provide leadership to my horse. I was just being extra nurturing while she was healing from her injuries and health issues.
But she is teaching me that somewhere along the way, she decided that there was no leader of our herd and she felt she had to test me and try to take the leadership role. I obviously missed those signs and the issues escalated.
Now she believes that her answer to my requests to do simple ground work at liberty, such as backing, disengaging the hips and bending, is to refuse and then quickly follow the refusal with a kick.
When she kicked me in the face last summer, I was unable to react with immediate correction because I was seriously injured.
And when she kicked me in the pasture, while running past me, she was gone before I could do anything as well. Although that time I did reprimand her with my voice.
When she kicked out at me recently, while asking her(pointing at her hip with my finger) to side step out of my way, I was also unable to react fast enough because my hands were full of hay and I was just trying to jump out of the way so I wasn't injured.
I've read a lot of information on how to deal with this serious safety issue and most advice revolves around having the horse under halter. So far, the only times she has offered to kick have been when we are working At Liberty, without a halter.
My question for you, in response to your words: "I will give an immediate correction (a correction that isn't done almost instantaneously is worthless) to a horse that has attempted to kick or bite me" is what types of 'immediate correction' do you typically impliment when a horse kicks out at you, and is At Liberty?
~Lisa
Lisa - with an at liberty horse, if they make any sort of threatening gesture, I move rapidly towards them, yelling and making a commotion - if I have a lead (I use a 10' cotton lead) I'll twirl it and chase them with it. Obviously you have to keep yourself safe when doing this as a horse can kick out when you're doing this, and this isn't safe to do with an extremely aggressive or dangerous horse who will escalate the violence - fortunately these horses are extremely rare. With a horse on cross ties that makes a face at me, or bares its teeth, I'll hiss and sometimes will arrange for the horse to "accidentally" run their muzzle into my pointed finger.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think it's that big a deal if you miss an opportunity to correct an attempt to bite or kick - when Dawn kicked me in the jaw I didn't have an opportunity to correct her - the pain and blood were a bit distracting(!) - and since I didn't do it instantly there was no point.
My philosophy is something more along the lines of treat the horse as an equal and with respect, but draw lines in and effective and fair way. I always choose to view the horse as a friend or counterpart, because for many of us that is exactly what they are. If a person can't respect a horse, themselves, and then other people (in that order), than horse ownership may not be the best thing for that particular ownership.
ReplyDeleteI was recently given some advice by a very well respected trainer: "Remember to be kind, even when teaching the horse to be obedient, and don't tolerate anything else."
Because I think your blog is truly stylish, I have passed on the "Stylish Blogger" Award to you.
ReplyDeleteThere are 4 duties to perform to receive this award:
1. Thank and link back to the person who awarded you this award
2. Share 7 things about yourself
3. Award 15 recently discovered great bloggers
4. Contact these bloggers and tell them about the award!
You can pick up the art work for the award at my site: http://livingadream2.blogspot.com/2011/01/foregiveness-fuzzy-hats-and-stylin.html
Thanks for being such a great blogger, for enriching my life and for always helping me think in a different way!
Kate - You know I gave you the award too over on my blog!
ReplyDeleteA most excellent post. The language we use reflects the way we think and our thoughts translate into action. I think I have a partnership with Beamer. A willing partnership. When I was a kid, I used to read about "becoming one" with your horse, and it's something I've always tried to do. I shudder to think of some of the ways I used to work with my horses. But being human, I learned from my mistakes and often at the expense of the horse. I think Ross Jacobs is right when he says you need humility to get the most out of a relationship with a horse. And humility is earned at the expense of pride. Horsemanship is a journey that makes better humans out of us.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your answer Kate.
ReplyDeleteWanna come help me? :)
~Lisa
Lisa - I would love to visit sometime, but you've got to be the one to do it, since it's your relationship with your horse that's what you're working on. Might be nice to get some supervision though - Mark Rashid clinic or someone else you trust? I'm not a big user/fan of round pen work, but that sort of work might be just what you and Apache need - she'd be at liberty but in a relatively confined space - of course you'd have to be more careful about your safety then.
ReplyDeleteTry making your body language a bit more assertive when you're around her - face her rather than turning your shoulder to her and stand extra tall and walk very purposefully. No cooing or loving on unless she's being extra nice. Take every opportunity to move her out of your space when you're around her (define it consistently - arms' length?) - it doesn't have to be big, just a step to the side or back now and again.
Do leading exercises with her - this requires her to pay attention to you and where you are and follow your lead - I'm going to be doing a post soon about that.
Whatever you do, be careful and stay safe!
Kate, Very perceptive and interesting post. I especially like your quotes from Ross Jacobs; he offers a different perspective that is valuable to think through.
ReplyDeleteKate - I like that Ross Jacob quote about making a horse feel good on the inside as well as the outside. I've known people who take immaculate care of their horses, but miss the point and the connection with them. Fortunately for your horses (and mine), they know that their emotional well-being is as important as their physical health. That's why Pie is so responsive and happy.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Kate. So often words can cause me to over think things with horses. I find this true in dressage, for example: "the horse should be in submission to the aids". What does that mean, for real? Do I agree? Is that what I want?
ReplyDeleteHorses feel. We feel. When we communicate via feelings, leave out the words, the translation is so completely different. When we're searching for words for what just happened, instead of trying to make something happen by applying words to the situation, I think we get a better result.
Submission - I ran that through my personal translator, and it came out like this: the horse should be relaxed and communication should flow unimpeded between horse and rider.
Very thoughtful post. Still thinking...