I'm not usually one who goes in for dominance-based methods of training, or theories about how horses interact with people. I don't believe that most horses are trying to dominate the people in their lives - but there are exceptions. Drifter, like our Lily, is one of them. Give him an inch, and he'll take a mile - if he gets away with nudging you with his nose, or head butting, or pushing through you when you're leading, next thing you know you've got nipping, then biting, then worse. He's not mean, just trying to figure out who's dominant in his world, and he's always watching very carefully to see where he stands. So in his case, I need to pay attention to where his body and feet are at all times, and never let down my guard - he's a challenge to work with but I think he's worth it.
The following video - it totals about 4 minutes (double click on it to see it full screen) - has a number of clips from our work session today - he was actually much better today than yesterday - we've been working on leading and personal space issues - with lots of backing out of my space, and I think that's helping. It's very interested for me to be able to see this in detail - I experienced it but seeing it is very helpful. I hope you enjoy it - pay particular attention to the timing of how I interact with him - I don't always manage to get ahead of him but I try to be right in there and not hesitate. Also pay attention to his body language - where he's looking, where the feet are going and his head, ears and tail - they all say a lot about what he's thinking. (And note that there are some things I'd like to change about how he lunges - I don't like it that he tends to turn in without being asked to, and that his cue for a change of direction is a jiggled line - I didn't teach him these things but they're minor problems at this point and we can deal with them later.)
In the first clip, he makes at least three attempts to change direction without my asking him to - I correct all three as quickly as I can. In the second clip, there's another attempt to change direction, which results in some spectacular rearing and plunging as I block it and tell him that isn't acceptable behavior. This clip ends with some nice licking and chewing - note the pick tongue coming in and out - he's beginning to decide that maybe I'm in charge. Clip 3 is the first changes of direction at my request. In clip 4, we're able to do some nice walk work with changes of direction - note the lowered head - he's not tired as we didn't work that long, but he's much more relaxed and willing to cooperate. In clip 5, I'm mounting up - it's far from perfect as he tries to move out a few times, but is able to stand when I ask - this clip is included mainly for contrast with a later clip. Clip 6 gives a picture of his excellent walk work. Clip 7 is where I'm letting him know I'm carrying a crop, which I want him to know I'll use if there's any balking (or worse - like the rearing I got earlier this week) when I ask for an upwards trot transition. Clip 8 is the trot transition - he thinks about balking (watch the tail and head) but doesn't follow through although there's still some resistance and reluctance to move forward. Clip 9 starts with him beautifully springing into trot from the halt, and some nice trot work. In clip 10, I've gotten off, but instead of putting him away I lead him straight back to the mounting block and get on (much better this time) and we immediately go off in trot - there's only a little tail swishing this time and no hesitation.
Drifter's definitely a work in process, but I feel good about what we accomplished today. Until everything is routine, I expect we'll be doing groundwork before our riding. Oh, and not to leave out Dawn and Pie - I rode them both today and they were both excellent - Dawn and I had a great session with much trotting and lots of transitions, and Pie and I did some trot work in the arena and also had a nice trail ride with Sugar.
Pretty good for a December day with horses!
Great work! Can definitely see a progression of positive as he works through his issues.
ReplyDeleteI know he's not doing what you want or are asking, and he is over-reacting a bit, but do you think by using some different communication that would make it easier for him to understand what you are asking?
ReplyDeleteDrifter looks confused and frustrated in several of those clips. What I see is you over-using the rope in your right hand. Even when Drifter is doing what you want and is moving forward, you continue to shake it at him. And you shake it at his side, instead of towards his rump, which just puts pressure on his side, as if you want him to move away from you. You only seem to use your left hand to hold the rope to Drifter's head, when it would probably be more effective if you used that hand to point in the direction you want Drifter to move (where the head goes, the body follows).
The jiggling of the rope looks confusing even to me. Drifter seems to think the jiggling means for him to stop and look at you. And then when he does that, you shake the rope and consequently, shake his face, and then he reacts with frustration, rearing, leaping in multiple directions(is this the way you want me to go? how about this way?) trying to figure out what it is you are wanting him to do. And then when he's standing there trying to figure out which direction you want him to go, you continue to shake the rope directly at his head with your right hand, instead of lifting your left arm and pointing to the left with your left hand, so he has a clear signal of which direction you wish for him to move.
Then to add even more confusion, you also use the jiggling rope to move him out of your space, too. This seems to be sending a lot of mixed signals to him. He just looks very confused and frustrated.
Drifter seems like a very smart horse, who wants to please, but who needs his instructions very simple, easy to understand and very consistent and specific.
~Lisa
I was great to see your video of Drifter working. It was nice to see him look so much more relaxed towards the end. Like you say when you think they are worth putting the effort in you dont mind the hard work. Hopefully Drifter rewards you with lovely rides as the other two do.Glad the December weather is being kind to you
ReplyDeleteLisa - I'm certainly no expert at groundwork, and appreciate your comments. Drifter did come to me with some groundwork training, not all of it good or useful. Some of the stuff I'm doing looks pretty big, but there's a reason. I think if you look carefully, the times I shake the rope at him are for two different purposes, and with different intentions, and he pretty clearly understands the difference. In the later clips, when we're doing changes of direction - that I'm asking for - I jiggle the rope gently at him to ask him to slow and turn - this is the cue he knows right now - it's not one I like but he understands it and can respond (although note that he's still coming into my space a bit, which is something we need to work on later). The other times - in the earlier clips, where you see subsequent acting out, are very different. These happen when he decides to change direction (generally from tracking left to right) without my asking - I immediately bring him back around pretty forcefully and then drive him back in the correct direction - what you sometimes see is that this produces aggressive acting up such as rearing and plunging where he tries to come back in my space and go right again - then I forcefully jerk the rope to move him very firmly out of my space, until he stops the aerial movements - which by the way are pretty darn threatening when you're on the ground.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't so much confused as resistant - and trying to dominate me by using his body into my space - as I said in the post, I don't use dominance language lightly, but in the case of this horse, it applies - he can be quite aggressive. And note that as the work goes on, my cues become less and less and he becomes calmer and more relaxed - that's what I wanted. Control of space with a horse like Drifter is critical - this wouldn't be true of all horses.
One reason I wanted to put this out there is that I believe that sometimes it is necessary to get big - but only briefly and for a specific purpose. Drifter is smart but also not that worried - he just wants to know what the rules are and that they are consistently applied.
That said, I do appreciate your comments and will think about my rope technique, which I certainly acknowledge is imperfect. For me, yesterday, the point was to get in there and get the job done, make it clear that I, rather than Drifter, was in control of speed and direction and space, and that serious acting out/threat behaviors would not be tolerated.
Regarding the rope discussion...that's why I prefer the lunge whip, as its direction is more precise. But, we know Drift is afraid of that, so, until you can desensitize him, the rope does the job along with your body language.
ReplyDeleteYes, some of the rearing is aggressive, defiant behavior, but at least he is not coming towards you when he does it. I worked a mare one time that headed right for the handler with the rearing stuff. Really scary. Two pretty firm lashes of the whip at her front legs cured her of it with me in an instant, proving that she was well aware of what she was doing and not just acting out of fright or frustration.
I find long lining really good for difficult horses too. It does give you a bit more control. Some of what Drift is doing reminds me a lot of Tucker when he decides to be "naughty" on the line to test me out--and he has had plenty of groundwork. Like Drift, he still thinks he can challenge and test me. I don't think its something he will ever actually quit doing. It's too much a part of his personality.
Good job getting through to your boy. He's a handful when he decides to question your authority.
The video was very interesting and I admire your dedication and perseverance. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteGroundwork is practiced frequently at my barn, and, although there is a melting pot of philosophies, this makes for a diverse learning experience. So I would like to offer some thoughts.
I have lunged horses who like to turn around at will on several occasions. There are two approaches which I have adopted. If I lunge with the "swinging rope (Western)" technique, I use a thick, round, heavy line that may hang slack as the horse travels and gives a very clear, strong movement if I shake or swing the rope. Describing all the body language would be too much here, so I will just say that if the horse tries to turn around I immediately swing the heavy rope toward the inside nostril. The horse can continue to turn and walk into the rope or correctly move in the requested direction. I have found this technique to be clear and fast in its effectiveness.
The second approach is more "traditional (English-style)" with a flat cotton line and a lunge whip. The lightweight, flat line must remain connected to horse with no slack. The whip is used to drive the horse to the line. If the horse is going to turn around, he must break the "contact" with the line first. By insisting that the horse remain connected, the turning around stops before it is even attempted. If the horse is very quick and manages to turn before the connection can be reestablished, then the whip becomes very active directly in front of him so that there is no question that this is the "wrong way".
As for handler body language, watch that you are not stepping backward. Drifter is subtly invading your space with each change of direction, even when he is seemingly obedient.
Jean - I agree that he his a horse that would benefit from my using a lunge whip, and I'm going to be working with him on desensitizing him to it so I can use it as an aid. I'm also going to be working with him on ground driving - a good thing to do over the winter - this will help teach him to do outside turns, which I can't do on the lunge, and also to always go forwards when directed without any hesitation.
ReplyDeleteVal - very good points - I've had no coaching to speak of on groundwork so what I do is based on what I know, which is, of course, only what I know! I also agree about not stepping back on turns in towards me, even those I've requested - he has a tendency to cut the corner on inside turns and I need to work more with him on him cleanly turning and staying out on the circle.
What a hot tamale! I cannot get over what a beautiful mover Drifter is. He's got such great impulsion and carries himself beautifully. I can definitely relate to those moments where it looks like you're trying to reel in the big fish. I think the sign that you're doing well is how much more relaxed he looks at the end of the clips than at the beginning. Those horses who test, test, test can be such great partners, but they're not easy :-)
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting these videos. They were really good for me to watch because they are very similar to what I'm going through with Tess (or was...she gave up pretty quickly yesterday). When she doesn't want to go forward she shakes her head and when I push her forward, she reacts a lot like Drifter. She also had the same response after a few 'discussions' about going forward with no attitude. And just like Drifter, the end of our lunging she was listening and moving quietly forward without resistance. Which then has translated into a ride with similar results! Yeah for groundwork!
ReplyDeleteI second what Mona says--it is awesome to see videos along with your description!
ReplyDeleteIn defense of your tactics here, I have found myself using similar techniques with my paint mare (who is a lot like Drift as far as personality). She also tests me--there have been a couple of times when she's tried to take off while I've been leading her, and I've found the rope-swinging/jerking and immediate forceful backing to be quite useful in making an impression. I don't like doing it, but there is a real difference from a horse who doesn't understand what you want and a horse that is doing what I'd call "energetically misbehaving." That kind of behavior calls for an immediate increase of energy from the human handler--I'm sure this is going to sound mean, but I really don't think it's a bad thing for an intelligent and independent horse like Drift to be a little afraid and unsure of what Kate wants now and then. After all, that's how HE'S behaving by getting too close and rearing/head tossing--he's being unpredictable and forceful.
I used to worry that I wasn't doing the "right" thing too much in my mare's case, and I think I've wound up with some more unpleasantness as a result. Some horses are just naturally like this--even a perfectly-trained independent-minded horse is going to have strong opinions. The real trick is to figure out how to convince them YOUR ideas have value.
If you can get Drift used to the lunge whip, I'd try lunging him without a lead rope and see if you can practice multiple and unexpected direction changes. I think smart horses like him want to shift to autopilot while lunging and moving in circles--it's really not enough for him to do to just hold a gait. That's easy-cheesy stuff for him, and he's wanting to use the other half of his brain to see where those mares are!
One thing I noticed in your video is how much more engaged he seemed when you were on his back--he wasn't losing as much focus as he was during the groundwork. Quite an amazing switch, actually. He clearly feels comfortable and engaged while you're riding, which is the most important thing of all! I was especially impressed with how he "recovered" when he tried to move off when you were at the mounting block--he was easily brought back after you asked him.
Fetlock - I think it depends entirely on the horse and its personality - Drift may be having to figure things out, but he's not easily intimidated and calms right down once he's got clear in his mind that I'm the leader - but that requires that I get ahead of him. There are a couple of occasions early in the clips when he gets ahead of me and starts to make a turn - it's good for me to study the videos since it helps me identify when he's starting to think about turning in so that in the future I can interrupt the thought rather than have to react to the action that the thought leads to. I was pleased to see that there is one occasion where he thinks about turning in and I get there and say something before he does - the ears and the eye and the body posture all signal what he's thinking of doing before he does it. Next time we work I need to see if I can improve my timing and do a better job leading his thoughts.
ReplyDeleteFetlock - I think the difference between his focus in the ground work and in the ridden work is partly that most of our work has been ridden and he's always been more difficult on the ground (not all - the rearing was under saddle). I've avoided dealing with some stuff that needed taking care of, and also have a bias towards just getting on and riding, so I've let the ground work lag, and it shows - he has a clearer idea of what we're doing under saddle and is used to (minus the one rearing episode) buckling down and working. When I first got him, his ridden work was as distracted and messy as the ground work still is.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure with more groundwork Drifter will get where you want him to be. I'm not the best with a lunge line so I usually let my daughter who is a master lunger do all the work.We're going to work on my techniques this winter with lunging and long lining. There really is an art to doing it correctly. She is also a big fan of long lining from the ground to teach them what they need to know. Good luck with Drifter.
ReplyDeleteThis type of horses can be extremely frustrating to work with. You'll make some ground and then things slide backwards. I know because my young mare Z is very dominant and will take a mile if given an inch.
ReplyDeleteI also know from blogging and video posting about her that many people don't get it. They don't understand why you have to use certain tactics with this type of horse that you don't with another.
I would offer one suggestion on the lunging. These type of testing horses are waiting for when - on the point of the circle they have moved into a position where you are parallel to their shoulder, not their hip. This way they can balk, back up, turn towards you and try to go the other direction. It happens in a split second.
When I was training my mini-pony (39" tall) I realized that this is how the horse is preventing me from urging on them on. That way they can back up instead of me urging them forward.
I know you wrote that Pie doesn't like the lunge whip and this may be why. The lunge whip can allow you to dodge quicker to his outside shoulder and tap it with the fly on the end, urging him to move in the opposite direction and get back on the circle the correct direction.
I definitely would try lunging him where your position is a bit behind his movement - though not correct "English" lunging it will put you in a better position when he balks and where you can react quicker.
Hope this helps! and Kudos to you because I really get a lot from reading your blog and reading how you work with each of your horses.
PS I don't post much because blogger seems to have issues with my ID on comments since I'm from Wordpress.
horseideology - your comment about the shoulder is a good one - check out the slo mo video in the next post where I'm trying to highlight where he's starting to think about turning in - and the head/shoulder/inside front leg are the key indicators - in that order. I think ground driving is going to be very beneficial for him as forward will definitely be required and I'll be able to stay well behind his shoulder.
ReplyDeleteWow, his reactions are identical to when I first starting lunging Laz. The dominance shows up in his head/neck/shoulder area, yet he would yield his hind to me easily and challenge, spin, push in my space w/ shoulder and up. EVEN today, we work on it, it has gotten much much better but he is sticky on yielding shoulder vs hind so I constantly work on that. Do you find Drifter has similar tendencies? Laz too is that give an inch and he'll take a mile horse so it's important that I'm SUPER clear when communicating and allow him time to process as when he's frustrated he BLOWS up. The other part of that, once they get it...they GET it. :)
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